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is romans 9 about nations

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Corporate election is the belief that God elects nations to take part in his plan, not individuals to salvation. God chose Jews, and He can choose Gentiles. A video on what Romans 9 is referring to, Feel free to leave comments below. “I have loved you, saith the Lord. Because Paul wrote Romans 9:21-23 based entirely on the Story of the Potter and Clay in Jeremiah 18. Matt Yes the word orthodox is the problem but unfortunately it has been labeled that. Romans 9 is the ninth chapter of the Epistle to the Romans in the New Testament of the Christian Bible.It is authored by Paul the Apostle, while he was in Corinth in the mid 50s CE, with the help of an amanuensis (secretary), Tertius, who adds his own greeting in Romans 16:22.. It might give the impression that Romans 9 is a treatise on the sovereignty of God. Change ), You are commenting using your Google account. He interacts with the flow of history and changes the outcome of the future as it unfolds by His decisions and actions. Grace does not run in the blood; nor are saving benefits always found with outward church privileges. Therefore, this article will analyze the entire chapter in its context, discussing the arguments raised by Calvinists. A Brief Overview of Romans 9. It’s not. Receive free Heavy Infantry whenever you build a new Barracks: one with Classical Age, two with Gunpowder Age plus 3 Military research, and three with Industrial Age plus 5 Military research). Paul is not referring to individuals in this passage, but rather to the corporate nations that were their descendants. In Romans 9-11 Paul is making the case that it is God’s plan to graft in the Gentiles, and Jews should not be surprised by it or try to argue against it. thou loved us? Paul begins by declaring how heartbroken he is about the state of his people Israel. on 12 Apr 2014 at 4:18 pm 3 Jas. From the Cruciform View on Romans 9:13. saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob, Romans 9-11: A New View of the Doctrine of Election The doctrine of election, especially as set out in Romans chapters 9 to 11, is thought to mean that God elects some human beings to salvation, and others to damnation.I have long had problems with this. 9:16 is dealing with individuals, not nations. The corporate nation of people was named after the individual patriarch Jacob, after his name was changed to Israel (Gen. 32:22-28). God’s Past Dealings with Israel in Electing Grace. So, when Romans 9 speaks of God’s election of Jacob over Esau, Paul is speaking of God’s choosing the nation of Israel to have a special place in salvation history. 7 Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God. Lecture 7 - Romans Chapter 9. Let's begin with this "key point" in the dialogue. Romans 9:13 Context. Change ), You are commenting using your Facebook account. These involve both Israel's place in God's plans and God's own character. But there is no mention of individuals at all in the context of the "clay vessels" in Jeremiah 18, but it is clearly talking about "Kingdoms" and NATIONS instead of individuals. The "clay vessels" in Romans 9:21-23 is specifically talking about NATIONS as opposed to individuals. ( Log Out /  Verses 1-33. The juxtaposition of God’s electing love (8:29), prophetic grief (9:1), and Israel’s dis­obedience (9:3), so awkward to modern readers of Romans, would not have seemed strange to Isaiah, Hosea, or Jeremiah. ( Log Out /  I continue to believe that Paul is discussing individuals in Romans 9, just as much or more so than nations. 9:6-13 The rejection of the Jews by the gospel dispensation, did not break God's promise to the patriarchs. Last edited: Jan 20, 2018. eternally-gratefull Senior Member. He and his father both served as Pharisees. ( Log Out /  Since it is the purposes of God that determine who gets elected and to what form of service they are elected, then it is God who decides when He needs to call individuals and when He needs to call nations or groups of people to perform certain tasks. What does Romans chapter 9 mean? “So then, it does not depend on the one who desires or makes effort, but on the mercy of God” (my translation). First off, Paul is quoting Malachi 1:2-3 in verse 13. Having completed this task, God did not set Israel aside. But only a bit. God Causes People to Eat Their Children - Jeremiah... Jesus is the Revelation of God by Joe Blair, Romans 9 is about Nations and Not Individuals, The Remedy New Testament Paraphrase of John 9:3-4, Calvinist Interpretation of Romans 9:13 DESTROYED. Here was a man who did not obtain mercy but whose heart was hardened (Rom.9:18b). The Old Testament provides the historical backdrop to the subsequent writings of Paul who wrote Romans 9 in the 1st century AD. … The Jews pr… This is the basic message of Romans 9-11. In either case, it is the nations that should spring from Esau and Jacob that are meant. Romans 9 and whole the Bible is in the context of real God with real attributes. While studying Bible passages about Calvinism, God’s sovereignty, and man's free will, Calvinists frequently turn to Romans 9 as a favorite proof-text. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel …” (Rom 9:6). This forum is dedicated to the discussion of openness theology. 6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. The Open View teaches that God can change the future. Hebrews 3:1 Romans 8:28-30 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose… 1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. Separating God's Will from Sickness and Tragedy by... Finis Dake on Satan Causing Life's Miseries. Romans 9 tackles challenging and hard-to-follow issues. God bless, Matt. However, if we look closely at Romans 9 and its referenced passages, we can observe where God has manipulated nations in His grand scheme, or judicially hardened rebellious individuals. God did not elect anyone and left everything to randomeness He told the mother, Two nations are in your … 10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. The above Scripture has made specific to the Pharaoh as a particular case (V17) which has been used to infer a general … First off, Paul is quoting Malachi 1:2-3 in verse 13. Was not Esau Jacob's brother? ‘All Israel’ must be correctly defined. Commentary: Interpreting Scripture with Scripture we see that Romans 9 is about nations and not individuals. (I explained the idea of corporate election a little bit more in my treatment of Romans 8:28-30 in Part 4 of this blog series). Bible Chapters Romans 9 Exodus 3, 9, 11 Jeremiah 18 Isaiah 64 Hosea 1, 2, 3 Throughout Romans 9 through 11 Paul was at pains to show that God’s goal all along had been to reach out beyond the borders of Israel and win the whole world (Rom 9:25-26, 33; 10:10-21; 11:11-12). No, the point of Romans 9 is that God sought to bless the entire world by raising up Israel to be a light and a blessing to others. They usually say something along the lines of:. 9 is about Nations and Not Individuals, https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXn0mUpckKTDhLiRiR5PIJg, Romans 9 is Not about Mercy for a Preselected Few, The Calvinist Sevenfold Approach to Scripture. The chapter contains multiple passages, which appearto support Calvinism. Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary . Careful examination of the context of Romans 9reveals that Paul was explaining God’s right to predetermine and use the nation of Israel to produce the Messiah. The sovereignty of God’s … Having carried us all the way from the distance and bondage and condemnation of chapters 1, 2, and 3 to the glorious freedom and justification and eternal union with Christ of chapter 8, the apostle now turns to consider another phase of things altogether. Likewise with the twelve corporate tribes of Israel, with each group being named after it’s individual patriarch (Judah, Benjamin, Napthali, etc.). “So then, it does not depend on the one who desires or makes effort, but on the mercy of God” (my translation). Indeed, this where the name “Israel” comes from. Yes Paul … In the remainder of Romans 9 Paul continues to prove that “all Israel” is not what many had naively understood: “It is not as though the word of God has failed. Romans 9:17-18 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on WHOM He wills, and WHOM He wills He hardens. Jan 20, 2018 #24. And I would challenge anyone who wants to try and turn Romans chapter 9 into something that is just about nations and national privilege and things like that, you must answer a simple question. Mar 14, 2011 70,910 15,464 113. It has nothing to do with predestination to salvation but a choice of which nation will serve God as stewards of eternal truths that are shared with the world. The corporate nation of people was named after the individual patriarch Jacob, after his name was changed to Israel (Gen. 32:22-28). Yet ye say, Wherein hast (If you want Gentile salvation, Paul already talked about it in the first five chapters of Romans. Romans chapter 10 is actually the heart of a three-chapter passage, Romans chapters 9-11. Today, I would like to rebut his interpretation and expound on what many scholars find is a more biblically consistent exegesis of this controversial passage. These three chapters are the Apostle Paul’s discussion of the nation Israel —past, present, and future. Dr. James White, a notable Calvinistic apologist and scholar with Alpha & Omega Ministries, published a web cast on Romans chapter 9. And I hated, Romans Paul expresses his great sorrow for the unbelief and obstinacy of the Jews, Romans 9:1-3.Whose high privileges he enumerates, Romans 9:4, Romans 9:5.Points out the manner in which God has chosen to communicate the knowledge of his name to both Jews and Gentiles; and how he deals, whether in judgment or mercy, with individuals; and produces the cases of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, … Now all of this is a bit misleading as an introduction to Romans 9. Instead, He transitioned from having an elect group of people in part of the world to calling all people in the world to join Him in the new elect people. Chapter 9. It was common practice in the ancient world to refer to a whole corporate, nation with the name of a patriarchal individual. Jan 20, 2018 #24. Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Indeed, this where the name “Israel” comes from. In my student days it almost extinguished my faith because I thought that I was elected to damnation, as described in my spiritual journey. I have heard a few times Arminians seek to explain away Romans Chapter Nine’s obvious teaching pertaining to double predestination. You do not need a specific verse in Romans 9 for this simple knowledge. Change ), Click to share on Twitter (Opens in new window), Click to share on Facebook (Opens in new window), Click to share on Tumblr (Opens in new window), Click to share on Pinterest (Opens in new window), Click to share on Reddit (Opens in new window), The Centrality and Supremacy of Jesus Christ, Calvinism, Arminianism, Pelagianism, Wesleyanism, Finneyism, Lutheranism, Open Theism, Moral Government Theology, Pentecostal. Introduction. The promises and threatenings shall be fulfilled. Rom. Romans 9-11 is a prophetic scene: having abrogated the covenant, Israel stands under judgment, but God’s faithfulness has not lapsed. I believe that in Romans 9 Paul is teaching both corporate and individual election. Romans 9 is an explanation for why the word of God has not failed even though God’s chosen people, Israel, as a whole, are not turning to Christ and being saved. Change ), You are commenting using your Twitter account. As I cited earlier, Paul writes, “10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad . Paul was both Jewish and a Roman citizen. ( Log Out /  Romans 15:9 Context. Indeed, Paul insisted God was yet going to attain his goal. Romans 9:24 Romans 9 - Click for Chapter ... but also out of nations, Links. . Romans 9:17 (a quotation of Exodus 9:16 and compare Exodus 14:4) Here we have the example of Pharaoh, a man famous for his stubborn and hard heart and his sinful refusal to do what God said. It was common practice in the ancient world to refer to a whole corporate, nation with the name of a patriarchal individual. They will go on to interpret all of Romans 9-11 in light of this assumption. The glory of God part in his plan, not individuals 10 is actually heart. 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